Anonymous asked: I don't know if you'll read this, but again, I'm the anon who asked about MayMay and I am so so sorry I brought this on you. This might barely need saying, but since MayMay's saying they want you to kill yourself...I don't want you to kill yourself, and I can't be the only one. You've influenced how I think about sex so much, and so much for the better. Because of that you've helped me not hurt myself and others with the sex I have. You're awesome and your life has made the world a better place.
Hoo boy did MayMay have a response to this. Skim down to the bottom after the cute guinea pig if you don’t want to read a whole lot of “kill yourself” or if you’re just sick of this whole thing by now.
I want to preface this by pointing out that I’m an abuse survivor, and have never committed or been accused of any kind of abuse. So right off the bat, this sort of puts the whole “I’m doing this because fighting abuse is more important than your little feelings” motivation into question.
It’s unfortunate you’re still alive, Cliff,
Why? I mean, shit, say I did die. What would that change? Would that somehow reduce the amount of abuse in the BDSM scene?
It wouldn’t even make your life easier, because if you think people are hard on you now, imagine how people (and law enforcement) would react if you succeeded in hounding someone to death.
[snipped for length/ranting, go to the link if you care]
Once again, it’s really fucking creepy that you think the only reason to be upset by “kill yourself” is a cynical popularity ploy.
But you know what, popularity actually does matter if you’re trying to accomplish a change in the culture. I’ve sought an audience for my writing not because I’m looking to be an Internet Celebrity, but because I think I have some good messages so I want them to get out there. I don’t think it’s immoral to act in that interest.
First, (obviously?) none of the Predator Alert Tools can tell you who is or is not a predator—that’s not a computer’s job, it’s a specific human’s job. More specifically, it’s everyone’s job to do for themselves. […] there is no ethical alternative to using your own judgement.
Wait, WHAT??? I thought your whole crusade was because of these magical tools that are more important than human lives, and now you’re saying you don’t really care if they work because people should just take personal responsibility for not getting abused???
It is certainly fitting with your modus operandi of being popular and hating on convenient enemies (of which I am all too pleased to embody) to have people avoid critical thinking on their own, and encouraging them instead to take whatever information they receive from you as gospel, oh great answerer of Tumblr asks. That kind of paternalistic approach you’re taking is the same way oppressors work, even if the words they use vary. So, of the two of us, Cliff, it’s not me whose behavior in this interaction functionally results in people being less empowered.
Again.. what? I’m trying to parse this, and the best I’ve got is “saying you have an opinion different from somebody else’s opinion, and worse yet telling people about it, is oppression.”
Of course, this isn’t the first time I’ve made these points, but you don’t see Cliff linking to any of those posts. Consider reading a post on my blog making that point in a different way. And keep reading Pervocracy’s blog for more posts that selectively ignore mine, of course.
Yes, there are posts on my blog that aren’t about you. Quite a few of them. Horrors. (If I had better willpower and self-preservation instincts 100% of my posts wouldn’t be about you, but alas.)
With regard to the Predator Alert Tool for FetLife, you apparently think that the “jokes and grudges” are a problem and lead to the tool being less useful, when in fact the opposite has proven to be true. [snip] In fact, even one of your buddy-buddy activist blogger fellow petty cowards, Thomas Millar cogently addressed this very derail you’re making:
You might expect that people would spam the database to make it useless. There are many obvious griefing entries, just junk filled in with silly descriptions. But so what? In fact, sometimes, the patterns of those entries tell a story themselves. Someone named a British kinkster, and the response over the next two days was a flood of obvious griefer traffic, many of the reports made by people who identified themselves and were in fact friends of the guy identified as having violated consent. This is the community response to survivors’ stories, captured in real time, the support for the accused and pressure to shut down disclosure. That swarm had one other nugget in it, though: another report that the accused had violated someone’s consent.
Okay, point taken, although this is expecting people to dig pretty deep in the database. But fair enough; the general idea of an off-site place to discuss predatory behavior on FetLife is actually a good idea. Someone who’s trustworthy, open to criticism, and makes survivors feel safe should start one.
Also, it’s kinda funny how your rebuttal had to be couched in “by the way, this quote is from another evil monster.”
Oh no, it’s okay. I’m fine and I think a lot of interesting discussion came out of the question, plus maybe some awareness for people who’d been promoting the “predator alert tools.”
(Even without considering their creator, the tools aren’t very good. They mark people as “predators” on OkCupid for things like answering “yes” to “intoxication can be an excuse for acting stupid.” I mean, okay, that can be an abuse rationalization, but it can also be a “wearing a traffic cone on your head” rationalization. And at least that’s objective; the FetLife one is based on this database, which has as many jokes and grudges as actual abuse reports, and even has some people listed as revenge for reporting abuse.
So even the “you may not like the person who made them, but you need to promote these tools or you love abuse” argument doesn’t hold much water with me.)
And hey, you don’t need to apologize for MayMay’s behavior. It’s not like asking me what I think of a person is the same as making that person attack me.
And thanks. :)
So, there’s that. If you’re still alive tomorrow, Cliff, try coming up with a critique that we haven’t already addressed. I’d genuinely be interested in your constructive feedback about the tools, but I’m not going to be nice to you when you purposefully make ad-hominem attacks, encourage logical fallacies, decontextualize my words, actions, and intents on your platform to hoard your own social capital, selectively ignore my posts, and generally try shaming me into behaving the way you’d like to see me behave with tone arguments. That’s just cyberbullying, and I’m going to keep telling anyone who does that to me to kill themselves, because doing so is actually appropriate and helpful in defeating the social censorship and misinformation you’re evidently hell-bent on reinforcing.
No, it’s not helpful. It just makes people respond to your tools with “oh, the ‘kill yourself’ guy?” instead of even considering their usefulness. And like I said, God forbid someone actually did die; even if you don’t have any moral qualms about that, your whole mission would be completely tanked.
I understand saying “fuck off” to critics; you’re certainly not obligated to give every criticism a polite response, or any response. But responding with pages-long screeds about people’s deaths is… that kinda goes beyond “tone” and into verbal abuse. (It’s also sort of appropriative to bring up the “tone argument,” which was meant to explain why oppressed people aren’t always polite about their oppression, when the “oppression” you’re suffering is people calling you a jerk on the Internet.) I mean, if the whole point here is that you’re willing to do anything to fight abuse, shouldn’t you be willing to not abuse people? Change starts at home.
And of fucking course I “selectively ignore” you, how egotistical do you have to be to think it’s malicious for people to talk to you without reading every word you ever wrote?
…Egotistical enough to think that people should die if they say anything bad about some marginally-useful browser extensions you wrote.
(Hey, speaking of selectively ignoring! The one thing MayMay didn’t address in this incredibly long rebuttal was how their ex talked about feeling abused and threatened by them and afraid to speak out! Funny how that one bit slipped their mind!)
Just so we’re all still clear that MayMay has not suddenly become less abusive or generally less of a shitty person.